Post by hibbsaDoes this question an answer?
Is it logically possible for the multiverse to produce macroscopic universes exhibiting any statistically significant differences than our own universe?
Some universes will be "Harry Potter" universes where, for example, the entire Pacific Ocean suddenly evapourates away into outer space. These are of vanishingly small measure. But that strange occurrence, although rare is pretty "significant". You need to explain what you mean by "statistically significant" because...
Post by hibbsaI mean "statistically significant" in the most rounded possible sense.
There is no "most rounded possible sense". The term is most typically associated with how confident one is with probability values in terms of the *standard deviation*. You can learn more here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_significance and then ask some questions or perhaps decide if using this term while chatting to Bruno (who is a mathematician and, while I do not wish to speak for him, presumably likes precision) is the best choice. Bruno, or me, or David - who have all now engaged with you on this might be thinking one thing about "statistically significant" while you are thinking something else entirely.
Post by hibbsa- Any difference that our universe couldn't have gone the way of, consistent with its initial conditions all laws of physics assumed constant
The multiverse prescribes exactly that. We answered that before. Different universes will evolve differently as a consequence of the very laws explaining their existence. Those laws holding in exactly the same way in all universes.
Post by hibbsa- Any difference in terms of any phenomena existing at any level of abstraction in greater or lesser or with any difference in any attribute including (a) abundance (b) probability of occurrence (c) relation with other phenomena (d) internal constituents.
I do not understand all that. It's too much all at once for me. So...my fault then, perhaps.
Post by hibbsa- Any difference on any level at all where to be different at the bottom level requires contradicting the probabilistic rules of QM
That won't happen. Why should it? Unless you have a better theory, then why should we guess that some times in some places the laws of QM are "contradicted". To assume that *is* a contradiction if we are talking science.
Post by hibbsaand/or causing unique consequences of those rules as a result of interaction with macroscopic phenomena and at the top level requires any significant difference in the timing, macroscopic and microscopic structure, and ultimate fate of the universe.
The reason I think this question deserves a proper full answer. And by that I mean...not just a criticism of the way the question is formed is because there could be important consequences...which may not be worked through.
That is a bizarre condition actually bordering on the dogmatic/insulting. As if to say answers provided *so far* have not been "proper full". But we have tried! There's no reason to imply, with that line, that you are not being taken seriously or being given something less than "proper full" answers.
So far you'e had myself, David Deutsch and now Bruno Marchal each independently ask you what you mean in various places. This is the best, most courteous, truth seeking way of proceeding. As I have conceded in another post on this exact topic - you may indeed have something here. I just don't know. No need for you to imply that so far I (for one) haven't given a full proper answer. I'm doing my best.
Post by hibbsaIs it logically possible for the multiverse to produce macroscopic universes exhibiting any statistically significant differences than our own universe?
You have to understand that...we don't understand. We are not criticising *you* the person. We just want to understand the question. I thought I had a really good go at this. I thought David also responded to this in a very clear way. And now so too has Bruno. But it seems you are not happy with our responses and instead of asking further questions, or trying to rephrase, we get instructions to not provide
Post by hibbsaa criticism of the way the question is formed is because there could be important consequences
But that "criticism" of the way the question is formed is the only way we can get to what you are actually talking about. Clearly you do need to change the *form* because all present attempts have failed. There can never be perfect transmission of a message so that receipt is error-free. All is fallible. In this case both you (the sender) and us (the receiver) are prone to errors. We just are not communicating well at all now so I'm asking for some error correction in the form of a re-transmission but in a different form because the current form seems to be error prone (whether it's with sender or receiver or both, I don't know - so this asking for rephrasing is one tactic I'm employing).
Post by hibbsaI am still not sure I really grasp your question.
I think that's fair. But it's *not* fair to say he should not be able to say this sort of thing (it *is* a criticism of form until we can get at the substance).
Post by hibbsaPlanck constant is
very little. So if you decide to boil some water, QM predicts that it
will boil normally in most of the branches you can access in the
multiverse, with some non negligible probability. Then you will have
the many universes fluctuating from that behavior, but,
proportionally, they will be rarer. At the extremal point of the
spectrum of the possibilities, you will have the "Harry Potter"
universe, but those are quasi-impossible to access (a good thing),
except perhaps near death, as the probabilities on the first person
expectancies get harder to compute.
I agree with all this. And it is what I was saying using the example of the cans of your water - some small measure of which boil instantly and some not at all (they are your Harry Potter universes).
Post by hibbsaOur macroscopic world is not emergent from the multiverse, except for
most quantum properties, so our universe is quantum normal, with
solid, liquid and gaz well described by the quantum statistics. but
each branches differ on orthogonal or quasi orthogonal state, and so
can differ in macroscopic properties (like if earth was not hit by an
asteroid a long time ago), but such branches will still obeys the same
macroscopic laws, like classical mechanics, for example.
Yes, the same laws exist in all places in the multiverse.
Post by hibbsaOur local realities are Gaussian, and that's why we can discern all
sort of laws. In fact that appears with just computationalism too.
Below our level of substitution, we emerge from infinities of
computations, which interfere statiostically, but above that level, we
have much simpler classical laws. In QM this is explained by MWI +
decoherence. With digital mechanism it is far more complex, but then
we can explain where the quantum comes from.
I hope this help, feel free to make your question more precise, if I
miss your point,
I am an optimist that hibbsa will!
Post by hibbsaAnd the philosophy is all about intrepidly working through the consequences?
But, hibbsa, how can we work through the consequences when we do not even understand the antecedents (the conditions, the thought experiment, the *question*?).
Post by hibbsaI've got some consequences waiting for your criticism. But I think it's important to establish your criticism or acceptance of the above first.
I am still asking "criticism or acceptance *of what*?". Again, we *can* reach consensus. We just have to keep trying. But asking the same question, without rephrasing, is not trying (not trying something new anyways) and that's no way to make progress...or come to some meeting of minds.
Brett.
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