Post by Ismail AtalayPost by Rami RustomWhat "relevant sources"? I did a google search for "7th century arabs
counted age from 7" and this discussion was the first result. And none
of the other results were relevant.
Probably needs more research in history&anthropology than simple google search. However as you might see in
below the idea of Arabs counting the age after some level of maturity has been reached could be found in anthropology discussion lists.
http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/single/?p=391825&t=1316891
I clicked on the link. There is only 1 post in that entire discussion.
Post by Ismail AtalayI personally don't think Muhammad married Aisha at the age of 6 or 9. I've heard that Arabs and Bedouins had a tradition of counting the age when the puberty begins. Which means Aisha must have been older, much older, than what people claim her.
Why did you post that link? Was it a mistake? Did you mean to post a
different link?
So a guy said that he believes assertion X based on what he heard. But
he didn't provide an explanation to go with the assertion, nor did he
tell us where to find this assertion (that he heard) from. So we have
no way of finding out what the explanation was. So how is this useful?
Note that your original assertion was that the Arabs counted from the
age that they could became mentally mature enough to understand
religion. But the poster's assertion (in the link you provided) is
that Arabs counted from the age that they reached puberty, rather than
what you said which is from mental maturity. Whats going on here? Your
memory failed you. Our memory is fallible. So don't judge ideas by the
authority of your memory.
Post by Ismail AtalayAlso please read below link.
http://www.islamawareness.net/FAQ/what_was_ayesha.htm
It gives a very detailed and punctual explanation of why Aisha can not be in pre-puberty at the time of marriage (with full references). It seems that she was around 16-18 years old or even older in the time of marriage.
All the hadith mentioning "9 years old in the time of marriage" in various trustable sources comes from a single line that has already reported problems like contradictory information, political influence etc. It is possible that these are manufactured Hadiths from Iraq region in which anti-Aisha political group wanted to decrease her authority by claiming that she was a child/adolescent that could not properly understand/interpret Islamic concepts during her marriage life with the prophet. You would probably acknowledge that she became a very important political power and influential Islamic interpreter after the prophet's death.
There are two possibilities. Either these hadith were manufactured as disgusting slanders or they were not giving the biological age of Aisha but her age counting from the time she became 7-8 years old.
The 2nd link that you quoted does not include any mention what so ever
regarding the idea that age was counted from the time of puberty, nor
from mental maturity, which was your original assertion. So this link
doesn't help explain your assertion at all.
So you have switched gears to a new new assertion/explanation about
the inauthenticity of the Hadith that mentions Aisha's age. Why did
you switch gears?
Lets lets talk about your second link. Your poster's whole point was
to deny the generally-accepted understanding that there existed a
tradition of marrying pre-pubecent girls in 7th century Arabia. And he
did this by explaining that the Hadith that talks about Ayisha are
inauthentic. So lets go back to the source that you do trust.
Quran 65:1-4 (translated by Sahih): (1) [...] when you [Muslims]
divorce women, divorce them for [the commencement of] their waiting
period and keep count of the waiting period, and fear Allah , your
Lord. [...] (2) [...] (3) [...] (4) And those who no longer expect
menstruation among your women - if you doubt, then their period is
three months, and [also for] those who have not menstruated. And for
those who are pregnant, their term is until they give birth. And
whoever fears Allah - He will make for him of his matter ease.
So the point of these 4 verses is to explain to Muslim men what to do
after a divorce. These verses explain that there is a 3-month waiting
period after a divorce before the women can get remarried. Why is
this? The reasoning has to do with sex and children. The waiting
period ensures that in the event of a pregnancy, it will be clear who
the father is. The verses go further to say that "those who have not
menstruated" are included in the explanation. What does that mean? Why
are pre-menstrual girls included in a discussion about divorce? Its
because Arabs of 7th century married pre-menstrual girls. So if a man
divorced a pre-menstrual girl, and if the next husband had sex with
her immediately after that divorce, that girl could have been able to
conceive a child right before the divorce (from the previous husband),
which means that no one would know who the father is. So the solution
was to make pre-menstrual girls wait for the 3-month waiting period
too. If men didn't marry pre-menstrual girls, then they wouldn't be
mentioned in these verses about divorce. Note that the name of this
Surah is "Divorce".
So even the Quran is consistent with the idea that there existed a
tradition in 7th century Arabia of marrying pre-menstrual girls.
-- Rami Rustom
http://ramirustom.blogspot.com